> Taiwan, perhaps, but they're playing a long-term tactical game rather than a "invade the country we don't like this week" game.
So one of the world's biggest and most rapid military build-ups in history that is largely intended to give China the ability to seize a democratic country by force by 2027 over any US/Western efforts to protect it is OK because...it's "a long-term tactical game"?
Note that China is not just menacing Taiwan. It's constantly harassing Japan, the Philippines and Vietnam too. Other countries in the region are worried because they understand that if China takes Taiwan successfully, it's not likely to stop there and become a good, peaceful neighbor.
The US, under Trump, is a foreign policy disaster. That doesn't mean that China, with a seemingly more emotionally stable dictator at the helm, is any less dangerous.
> They might get some info on you, but the data brokers in the west will sell a lot more details about you, pre-categorized and all.
With all due respect, you're really naive about how China operates.
You're judging China based on some future thing that may happen. The US has been bombing Iran for the last year impacting the entire global economy. I think I'll judge based on actions.
Are you able to walk and chew gum at the same time? Are you capable of finding the actions of two nations deplorable at the same time?
Like, can you not find the US bombing of Iran and, say, China's genocide against the Uyghurs to be a terrible thing at the same time?
Is there something preventing you from being concerned about Trump's threats to take Canada or Greenland and being concerned about China's planning and threats to seize Taiwan by force at the same time?
Yeah, because criticizing the US, and/or making China look good can get you on certain lists. Maybe that is the reason?
FWIW I do not buy into the "China bad, we good" narrative either.
The US has done really fucked up things, bombed countries for freedom, there has been recent events as well. I do not even think they were ever the "good guys" they thought they are. In Hollywood movies, sure, but in reality? Nah.
> Yeah, because criticizing the US, and/or making China look good can get you on certain lists.
What lists? And what happens to people on those lists?
> Maybe that is the reason?
If you think people are signing up throwaway accounts to post replies to random comments, making no substantive or even controversial statements, I have a bridge to sell you. In the US or China. Take your pick.
> FWIW I do not buy into the "China bad, we good" narrative either.
I never presented that narrative.
> The US has done really fucked up things, bombed countries for freedom, there has been recent events as well. I do not even think they were ever the "good guys" they thought they are. In Hollywood movies, sure, but in reality? Nah.
I'd agree. But what does this have to do with an analysis of China?
My previous comment got flagged about a minute after I posted it to you. It was three paragraphs and it argued a position without any abuse in it. It is probably someone in this thread who hit flag instead of replying because they did not like what I said. Which is suspicious, and it is also the thing I was already talking about. The throwaway shill insinuation earlier was a way to avoid engaging with a disagreement, and a flag does the same job. Welp.
> The US, under Trump, is a foreign policy disaster.
The US, under every single president has been an imperialistic threat to half the world. From imposing embargoes, to overthrowing governments and supporting dictators and genocides all over the world. Half the world hates you, and the other half has begrudgingly no choice but to half assedly support the greatest threat that the world has ever known, a military in a trenchcoat made to protect their dominance over world trade.
So, respectfully, fuck off. The Chinese are not a worse problem than you are, merely a different one. The NSA already has all my data, no reason the MSS shouldn't get a piece of that data too.
I always find it strange to encounter people whose disposition to one violent imperial power is to welcome...more violent imperial powers. Strange form of sadomasochism.
> I don't think China is more violent than the US.
You don't have to because that wasn't an argument I made. Both the US and China have done horrible things to innocent people and are both currently engaged in malicious behavior that is an affront to humanity.
> I think the US did this more in a century than China did in a millennium.
Once again, I'm not interested in "who is worse" pissing contests, but please educate yourself.
> The Great Leap Forward led to between 15 and 55 million deaths in mainland China during the 1959–1961 Great Chinese Famine it caused, making it the largest or second-largest famine in human history.
China was the Khmer Rouge's main backer. The Khmer Rouge's actions were responsible for a genocide in which 1.5-2 million people perished. Afterwards, China offered asylum to Pol Pot and his top aides.
People who are genuinely interested in justice, human rights and peace should be horrified by what both the US and China have done.
> Once again, I'm not interested in "who is worse" pissing contests, but please educate yourself.
Way to speedrun your argument being shit. I am now free to not take it seriously.
I'll reply for the other onlookers anyway.
> The Great Leap Forward
I know quite well about how awful China was to its own citizens during Mao years, thank you very much.
The thing is, I don't care. China can be as awful as it wants to be to it's own citizens.
The US has a very long list of spying and interfering (many times very violently) abroad. That is what I am concerned about, and that was the point I was replying to.
I could say something along the lines of you needing to educate yourself, but I tend to not seed asphalt.
> The Tibetan government in exile believes as many as 1.2 million Tibetans died as a result of Mao's invasion of Tibet in 1949.
Again, I don't care. China sees places like Tibet and Taiwan as China. Not my problem.
China never threated to send troops to invade Greenland.
> People who are genuinely interested in justice, human rights and peace should be horrified by what both the US and China have done.
In many ways, I am. But that is not what is being discussed here.
> The thing is, I don't care. China can be as awful as it wants to be to it's own citizens.
Way to speedrun proof that you're an abhorrent person.
> Again, I don't care. China sees places like Tibet and Taiwan as China. Not my problem.
> China never threated to send troops to invade Greenland.
So China causing more than a million deaths and displacements when it actually invaded a functionally sovereign state (Tibet) and threatening to invade and seize Taiwan, which has its own democratically-elected government, constitution, currency, central bank, military, etc. "is not your problem" but somehow Trump threatening to invade Greenland is your problem?
Unless you're a Greenlander, by your own standard, you have no legitimate reason to care about the ~57,000 people who live in Greenland. Let China take Taiwan, and let the US have Greenland.
> So China causing more than a million deaths and displacements when it actually invaded a functionally sovereign state (Tibet) and threatening to invade and seize Taiwan, which has its own democratically-elected government, constitution, currency, central bank, military, etc. "is not your problem"
Correct.
> but somehow Trump threatening to invade Greenland is your problem?
Correct.
> Unless you're a Greenlander, by your own standard, you have no legitimate reason to care about the ~57,000 people who live in Greenland
EU, article 42. Educate yourself.
(Just kidding, it would be in vain).
> You're a real piece of...work.
No, I just live in a country that does not pretend to be the world police.
I can't do shit about China invading Tibet or Taiwan, much in the same way I can't do shit about Israel turning Gaza into an open-air Auschwitz, beyond writing mean words on the internet.
But I can recognize what country poses the biggest threat to my living nowadays. That country is not China, it is the US.
> No, I just live in a country that does not pretend to be the world police.
No, you're just an abhorrent person.
The fact that you don't care about the people of Tibet, Taiwan, or any other country or group of people that you don't deem important because they don't share your interests, but feign fear that your life could be shattered by Trump invading Greenland, speaks volumes about what type of person you are.
The largest contributor to the EU economy (Germany) was responsible for the worst genocide in human history. The second and fourth largest (France and Spain) were two of the most brutal colonial powers in history, and their wealth today wouldn't exist without the resources they violently extracted from their colonies. Portugal was the largest participant in the Transatlantic Slave Trade. The wealth of the Netherlands today stems from the Dutch trading empires of the 17th century, which were responsible for shameful atrocities around the world.
The EU narrative is one of a peace project but in reality, it's pretty obvious that it was an attempt to maintain Europe's geopolitical relevance after the post-WW2 rise of the US and USSR. When the EEC was founded, it even incorporated France and Belgium's African colonies and fully absorbed French Algeria, where, by the way, somewhere between 400,000 and 700,000 people eventually died during the fighting for independence from France (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Algerian_War).
Humans anywhere and everywhere (the US, Europe, China, etc.) can be horrible, and your loathsome comments prove that in microcosm.
> The fact that you don't care about the people of Tibet, Taiwan, or any other country or group of people
They have my sympathy. But I can't do anything about it. Nor can you.
What exactly do you propose in a conversation that started by people discussed using Chinese LLMs instead of LLMs from the US?
> but feign fear that your life could be shattered by Trump invading Greenland, speaks volumes about what type of person you are.
The country where I live would, per article 42 of the treaty of the European Union, have to defend Denmark if the US took military action to take over Greenland.
I am not feigning anything, this would absolutely have a major negative impact in my life.
In many ways, Iran was the best ally the EU could have hoped for. By bravely resisting US aggression, it made the war costly enough that invading Greenland would probably be politically untenable now.
> The largest contributor to the EU economy (Germany) was responsible for the worst genocide in human history.
In recent memory, yes. I can think of others that may have been worse in relative numbers, but further in the past and not as well documented to know for sure.
> The second and fourth largest (France and Spain) were two of the most brutal colonial powers in history, and their wealth today wouldn't exist without the resources they violently extracted from their colonies. Portugal was the largest participant in the Transatlantic Slave Trade.
I know quite well about all that. In fact, I come from one country that used to colonized by such powers.
You can mention many more past nations, empires and so on, all with their laundry list of atrocities. Imperial Japan, Mongolian empire, Ottomans, Aztecs, British Empire, etc and so forth.
I am still not sure what is your point. I don't think you have any to be fair, beyond some vague anxiety that people would use Chinese LLMs.
> Humans anywhere and everywhere (the US, Europe, China, etc.) can be horrible, and your loathsome comments prove that in microcosm.
I am horrible because I care about things that affect me directly while caring a lot less about thing that don't?
Or am I horrible because when I evaluate two evils I would pick one that affects me less?
Because in terms of power to enact change in the world, I have none. I am just some middle-aged software engineer living in some small town, somewhere. I don't exactly have the power to do anything for people beyond my immediate vicinity.
"Give me the strength to change what I can, the resilience to accept what I can't, and the wisdom to know one from the other"
> I am horrible because I care about things that affect me directly while caring a lot less about thing that don't?
Your previous words speak for themselves:
> The thing is, I don't care. China can be as awful as it wants to be to it's own citizens.
> Again, I don't care. China sees places like Tibet and Taiwan as China. Not my problem.
You are abhorrent, no matter how hard you want to believe that you're a helpless piece of styrofoam floating in the rough ocean.
I'll give you a hint that your parents should have taught you when you were a child: you can care about other people and have compassion for them even if you're not able to help them.
The seeds that grow into great atrocities have throughout history always been planted by apathy.
> I am just some middle-aged software engineer living in some small town, somewhere.
No, you're just looking forward to being the only violent imperial power and to rule unopposed. the existence of another violent imperial power keeps you on a leash. It's not the best case scenario, but an unfettered and unrestricted united states spells doom for the world.
China also happens to be the one that's electrifying the world, producing and improving batteries, solar panels, has a long term plan while the US is going hurr durr VC money printing for smart dog food.
> No, you're just looking forward to being the only violent imperial power and to rule unopposed.
You'd probably be a much more content person if you stopped going around the internet assuming things about random strangers on the basis of their nationalities.
Elsewhere in this thread you insinuated that someone is a Chinese propagandist for pointing out that the US is actually aggressive in ways China is not.
If you're going to assume other people have ulterior agendas without evidence, you can't be surprised when people make assumptions about you in turn.
> Elsewhere in this thread you insinuated that someone is a Chinese propagandist for pointing out that the US is actually aggressive in ways China is not.
America's aggression around the world is well-documented and is deplorable. That can be acknowledged and discussed without dismissing Chinese aggression. There's no law of the universe that says only one country can be a bad actor at the same time.
Yes, I was referring to that comment. You knew exactly which one I was talking about without pointing it out specifically, so why should I have bothered?
Now you just dropped five links in an attempt to demonstrate that Chinese aggression is comparable to US aggression, and yet none of those incidents amounted to extrajudicial execution (aka murder), which is what the person with the throwaway account was referencing.
All of it is beside my point anyway, which is that you are making assumptions about people while also asking people not to make assumptions about you.
For all you know, that throwaway account is someone who uses this site for professional development under their real name and does not want their criticism of a vindictive administration tied to them. Instead of considering that, you implied that they are a Chinese troll engaging in bad faith.
I'm inclined to believe that if someone is drawing false equivalencies and needlessly smearing their interlocutors as trolls, they are the one engaging in bad faith.
We are thoroughly off-topic at this point, so let's just end this thread here.
> Now you just dropped five links in an attempt to demonstrate that Chinese aggression is comparable to US aggression, and yet none of those incidents amounted to extrajudicial execution (aka murder), which is what the person with the throwaway account was referencing.
China engages in the extrajudicial execution of its own citizens.
I personally believe that the US has committed a significant number of crimes. That doesn't mean I'm blind to the fact that other countries commit crimes too.
I'm not sure why so many people struggle to acknowledge that all of this stuff is evil, regardless of the country doing it.
> For all you know, that throwaway account is someone who uses this site for professional development ...
Normal people using sites like this for professional development don't decide to create throwaway accounts post a single response to one short comment, buried in the context of a larger thread, that wasn't even highly downvoted or upvoted. This is what troll farms do and I'd have to question your intellectual honesty if you keep pretending that this isn't exactly what China-sponsored troll farm commenting looks like.
> The US, under Trump, is a foreign policy disaster.
This administration only removed the blinds on what has always been an adversarial policy, allies included.
If given a choice you may choose US or Chinese models for whatever reason it's fine, but there's no need to fall into the delusion that it is for moral reasons or obligations.
So one of the world's biggest and most rapid military build-ups in history that is largely intended to give China the ability to seize a democratic country by force by 2027 over any US/Western efforts to protect it is OK because...it's "a long-term tactical game"?
Note that China is not just menacing Taiwan. It's constantly harassing Japan, the Philippines and Vietnam too. Other countries in the region are worried because they understand that if China takes Taiwan successfully, it's not likely to stop there and become a good, peaceful neighbor.
The US, under Trump, is a foreign policy disaster. That doesn't mean that China, with a seemingly more emotionally stable dictator at the helm, is any less dangerous.
> They might get some info on you, but the data brokers in the west will sell a lot more details about you, pre-categorized and all.
With all due respect, you're really naive about how China operates.
https://www.wired.com/story/chineses-surveillance-state-is-s...